Sorry about being quiet

My hard drive died. I'm working in West Jordan temporarily, so my time at home has been highly limited. As soon as I'm back at my normal work location I expect to have my computer back up and write a few things on the blogs.

Eric

Sugar Beet - another update

I managed to contact Mr. Bigelow and now I'm back in the Sugar Beet loop. Granted there's a lot less going on now. They're working on the Sugar Beet book. I'll keep those interested (and those who are not) up to date with what I can. I don't want to spoil anything.

Eric

Working with Mormons

I live in Utah, so there's not much I can do to get away from Mormons at work.

Somehow I've lucked out, at least within my own group.

My supervisor is LDS only because he was baptized. I think he quit during his seminary years. He has a lot of baggage. He's leaving at the end of the month, which is actually a good thing despite the direction of this article.

One coworker is only in my store two days a week (as she travels to two stores every week, ours is the one she spends less time in), and he has her own baggage, as I recently learned. Very direct reason for not being part of the church, but too serious for me to talk about it.

A third coworker works in the store just as much as I do. She's relatively new. I know she's not active, and does not follow the restrictions that the church places on people. I think her parents are LDS, though they are originally from Europe (as in, not from Utah). She has issues, but nothing like the others or myself.

The last coworker in our group is a moderate True Believing Mormon. He's from Mexico City, and while his parents are LDS, he was brought up in a different culture and social scenario. I know he was naughty in his youth, at least before his mission, and has been a good boy since. He doesn't know anything about my exodus from the church.

There are dozens of people in my work environment, not of my work group, who are LDS. I would venture that most if not all of them are. There's even a creepy future "adult singles ward" guy who knows the church owns Coca-cola because he claims to have seen the church's financial statements. As if the church would let any one peon, non-employee, 20-something, non-royalty, conspiracy-theory member see their financials.

The problem I have, which is the purpose of this article, is that I can't stand it. A guy recently got married in the temple, but never went on a mission. He was in the store tonight and seemed to go off into la-la land when I asked him how the wedding went (knowing full-well about the temple - the reason I asked!). It wasn't good, great, or horrible. It was... "um... ok."

I'm surrounded by the superficial existences of others who believe, with whatever percentage of their being required to dupe them into believing, that the church is true no matter what. They don't know about Joseph Smith's dozens of wives. They don't know that Smith was an egotistical attention seeker with a complicated god complex who felt the world should bow at his feet (read about his many exploits into combining church and state as well as his sense of entitlement and self-importance). They don't know anything, and yet they profess to know everything.

It's hard working with Mormons. I wonder if I was just like these people during those years I was the only Mormon in my workplace. Actually, I know I wasn't, at least outwardly. I even told them all I voted for Gore, which was probably harder on that all-Republican group than the fact that I was LDS.

It's going to be interesting working among Mormons - especially now that I'm not one of them.

Eric
New Name Dan

An Outsider Looking In

An Outsider Looking In

Not being an original Utahn, I can’t help but find certain things a bit odd. Having been born in the Hudson Valley area of New York, and then living as a Damn Yankee (not the big hair band) in North Carolina for fifteen years, I feel that my four years in Utah still qualifies me as an outsider. In any case, I seem to get weird looks from people when I bring these differences up, further cementing my sense of being out of touch with fellow Utahns.

more...

Wow! I found the Sugar Beet! (an update)

It seems that Mr. Bigelow and Mr. Carter (which whom I work with on occasion in the Sugar Beet organization) are continuing the Sugar Beet in blog form on Blogger! The title links to the new Sugar Beet blog.

From my observation, I would point out that much of it comes from the first version of the Sugar Beet, which can be browsed by starting here and using the archive link at the top of the page to start on issue one and (using your back key) move forward to issue 25. Issue 26 forward was done in print and available only by subscription.

In my opinion, a very weak version of what once was. I'm tempted to start writing again to help out, as I find I have much more inspiration for satirical LDS-themed articles now that I've started my journey out of the church. But I barely have time for my blogs, let alone more Sugar Beet articles.

One thing to point out, though, is that the book seems to be moving forward. Read about it here.

Eric

In reponse to a Daily Herald letter

Click on this article's title to view the letter to the paper. You need to read the letter and responsed before reading my comments!

I read through many of the reponses to this letter to the paper and picked up on a few highlights...

First, one response was on the money about being a mob mentality. If you do a whirlwind tour of sociology, one would discover that instances of mob mentality throughout history have created some of the best and worst in humanity. While the mob mentality it not limited to the LDS in Utah County (where I happen to live these days), it is DEFINITELY a very predominant influence on every-day life. I would venture to associate Utah Valley to some areas of the Islamic world in terms of overall actions toward "non-members" and the mob mentality that ensues.

The modern LDS culture is cut from a different mold than the modern Presbyterian movements, though much of the original church stemmed from Presbyterian ideals. There is a predominate tendency toward supremist thoughts and actions. The "true church" mentality is different than the "true gospel" mentality of, among others, the Baptists. The church thinks it's 100% true and perfect, and its members act in similar fashion. The Baptists know they are imperfect and only have hope for salvation in Christ's grace - a form of humility, if you will - that creates a different mentality among Baptists that while the mormons are totally wrong, they themselves are not perfect except when prone to Christ in spirit and mind. Still fierce, very outspoken, but not as mean as LDS people will get when they revert to the "well your church is 100% true and perfect" mentality.

Which leads me to my second observation about the Daily Herald site. Some of the comments stated that, paraphrasing more than one of the comments, "We can share what we know..." The problem with this is how LDS "share" knowledge. They don't come out and give you the plain truth, but give you the filtered version of what will get you interested and create a base emotional response to something mostly benign, win your trust, and hope you look past (or never see) the hard-cutting fringe part of the gospel. Sharing is a difficult concept for the LDS people beyond what they share. The LDS capacity for fanaticism changes "sharing" the gospel to "cramming" the gospel down someone's throat.

One comment stated that, "We can share what we know and invite people to join but we can't force them." The only problem with this is that, despite not being ABLE to force someone into mormonism, they certainly do everything possible to PUSH people in that direction.

I easily recall my more TBM days living back east with the assured knowledge that because I was mormon, I was a cut above the rest. I was superior, and if I didn't directly "share" my "beliefs" with others, I needed to live those beliefs to ensure my superior status. This is how many LDS people think, act, and live. They are the upper-crisp of humanity, in their eyes. And Utah is the gathering place for superiority. Apply these factors to impressionable children, and you get the Utah Valley mob mentality.

My wife and I are very recent exmormons, and we still live in Utah Valley (though our family has only been here a few years). We hope to raise our children to make choices for themselves instead of falling prey to any mob mentality. We do, however, fear for their childhood. We hear of instances like these all to often, where children are shunned by society for not being mormon. Having grown up an outsider in my own right, and knowing how that effected my life, I worry that my kids will end up being just as messed up and mormon kids, but from a different direction.

Of all my research and pondering, I've come to see that the mormon church does not profess the New Testament teachings and example of Jesus. Tolerance and compassion is not a virtue of the LDS church when it comes to non-member neighbors in your own neighborhood.

Eric Palmatier
New Name Dan

A personal note

Feel free to visit my personal, non-mormonism-related blog. The think is along the side under "My regular blog." Not as interesting as this stuff, I hope.

Eric
New Name Dan

In response to "The English and the Anti-Mormons" by Aaron Johnston, Nauvoo.com

In a recent article, Aaron Johnston Writes:
More specifically, I define an anti-Mormon as anyone who actively works to break down the Church and disenfranchise its members. These are the guys who wave banners and shout scripture outside the Conference Center during General Conference. Or the guys who pass out anti-Mormon literature at all the temple open houses. Or the guys who invite Mormon missionaries into their home only to start an argument and stir up a cloud of contention. Or the members of the Church who became "disillusioned" with the gospel, leave the Church, and then do everything in their power to take other members with them.

By Johnston's broad and assumptive definition, I can't think of a single person who has left the church who wouldn't be considered an anti-mormon. At some point, whether in their actions or in their heart, anyone I can think of who has left the church has struggled with helping (taking, in his words) family members leave with them. What person would willingly see the church as a fraud only to accept, without any hesitation, that their family members remain because it's good for them?

If you and your siblings were being abused (physically or mentally), and you manage to escape said abuse, would you just sit idly by as your siblings continue to be abused? Would you be content in leaving them behind with no attempt to rescue them as well? Mormonism is in many respects a system of mental abuse. If you gain a testimony that the church is false and abusive, would you be giddy and joyful about those you love remaining within that environment?

Interpretations aside, if working to "disillusion" members so I can "take" them with me is considered anti-mormon, I will proudly bear that label. I will not sit idly by and let the church take my kids. As my wife and I leave the church, I fully intend to "disillusion" and "take" my kids with me. If this labels me an anti-mormon, even if only in Aaron Jonston's eyes, I would be proud to be considered as such.

Johnsoton writes: Sad Truth #1: Anti-mormons don't care what you think.

Perhaps this is because the beliefs of church members are not wholly based on thought, but more on emotional response to repetitive stimuli and irrational reasoning. Pure dislogic, to a mind affected in emotional ways as many church members have been (commonly referred to as "brainwashing"), becomes so much more than actual logic. Dislogic becomes fanaticism. Fanaticism is not rational thought. If anti-mormons don't care what you think, it's probably because you're not actually thinking.

Johnston: Sad Truth #2: AMs believe they know Mormon doctrine better than you do.

While I must admit there are many anti-mormons who are merely countering mormon doctrine with more mainstream Christian doctrine, there are a large number of people who fall somewhere between those who have read a few books to those who have done in-depth study of mormon scripture.

I would peg most fanatical Christian anti-mormons on the low end of knowledge, where they read a few things and heard a counter argument made by someone with more knowledge.

Next you have those like me and most others I know of who have read things, researched some stuff, and have managed to think and discuss an idea to no end. We know enough to get out of the church and try to make sense of our lives. There are also some very well versed evangelicals out there who fall into this area.

Lastly, you have those who have not only read books counterpoising the Book of Mormon, but have not only read the Book of Mormon itself, but have likely spent much time creating cross-references for their cause. This is the true core of anti-mormons. These are also the people who very likely DO know “Mormon doctrine better than you do.” I would venture to say that most true believing mormons don’t know a tenth of what scripture really says, or they wouldn’t still be members of the church.

Sad Truth #3: AMs gleefully stockpile obscure quotes by general authorities and former members of the Church.

Johnston says that quotes are taken out of context. By his wording, I can only assume he means every quote it taken out of context. While I’m sure this happens often, most likely from those who were not members of the church, I know that a large number of well-meaning members also take quotes out of context, especially when an obscure but popular general authority has done it as well.

The church itself makes every attempt to limit quotes and references from prophets before the 60s and 70s. Why is this? Because, they feel, the references would be taken out of context. The truth is, the reference shows how things have been whitewashed or altered over the years – not for changes in doctrine, but for changes in position and appearance to the rest of the world.

Sad Truth #4: AMs will never, under any circumstances, admit they're wrong.

I’ve been wrong lots of times. I’m sure many people have. I know many true-believing mormons have as well (though they don’t think they’ve ever been wrong). This argument hold little water for me as what an anti-mormon knows to be right and a true believing mormon feels to be right are two different interpretations of what “right” really means. There’s no way to really prove right from wrong when there’s no reconciling facts from fiction.

Sad Truth #5: AMs will not leave you alone, even if you ask them nicely.

Mormons do the same thing under the guise of bring you a means by which to salvage your own salvation and inherit the highest degree of glory available to them (and winning them good works points toward their own glory). Even if mormons don’t pursue something, they pray for you to change your mind, which is just as bad as not leaving you alone.

Mormons seem to like a good fight, like to feel that they’re beliefs are right. To feed that egotistical need, they fight about it. It’s human nature. Anti-mormons are human too, and fall prey to the same irrational feelings.

Sad Truth #6: AMs are not courteous.

Neither are most mormons, when you boil down to it. In fact, it seems to me that most people are not courteous when their beliefs are being challenged. On the other hand, a lot of people can be quite aggravating when trying to prove someone wrong (or just prove their point).

There are a lot of low-tier anti-mormons (the fanatical ones as mentioned earlier) who are down-right rude or crude. The garment-waving protesters come to mind. I wouldn’t place them in a true anti-mormon category. These people are just out to feel big and mighty through loud voices and eye-catching actions.

Of course, this comes back to Johnston’s problem. He generalizes anti-mormons this way. Some opposed to the LDS church are not courteous, therefore all anti-mormons are not courteous.

The true anti-mormons are the learned ones. The ones who keep a level head, the ones who were in debate class, the ones with intelligence AND conviction. The idiots who make a ruckus outside of the Salt Lake City temple are there just for the noise and the ability to make some weepy mormon unhappy. A true anti-mormon not only knows how and why the church is false, but can prove it to anyone with a speck of open-minded logical inspection.

In conclusion, Aaron Johnston is simply generalizing his beliefs that all anti-mormons fall into the fanatical, irrational, and moronic category. In fact the truth, just like the church, its much different from the façade that he places upon his apparent belief that people, member or not, are either for or against the church. In reality, most people could care less and know little about the mormon-antimormon debate.

Eric Palmatier
New Name Dan